The Israelo/Palestinian non-sense

problem: Jews and muslims used to be able to cohabit peacefully (in palestine actually), now muslims absolutely hate the jews. Just dismantling Israel (and somewhat have the Israelians leave) cannot be enough.

focus on your country
without a strong foundation to stand on war will be knocking on our door as soon as we help
and leave them alone, the force has an odd way of getting what it wants done

focus on your country
without a strong foundation to stand on war will be knocking on our door as soon as we help
and leave them alone, the force has an odd way of getting what it wants done

Hear hear!

Fix your own problems first, let them sort themselves out.  If it -makes- itself a problem to you, then get involved.  But at the moment, the only reason it concerns us is because we keep sending troops -into- it.

and its sad that this is  the truth my friends
america is trying to be a hero but our country cant afford that bs right now

oh no. the reason it concerns us is because we created that situation in the first place. It is our fault things are the way they are over there, and so far, everything we have done to help make things `better´ has been pathetic.

yes but we (america) must learn when we are helping and when we're hindering
and right now we are a hindrance
and this is all about holy land

We, as Americans and as a country, need to embrace a foreign policy closer to what the Founders had in mind.  That is non-interventionism.  Non-interventionism basically states that we will actively compete and participate in the global economy as well as global affairs but we will not go to war for an Ally let alone start a war where there is no specific reason for us to be in that war.

Do not get me wrong, I do not advocate a completely isolationist standpoint where we do nothing at all.  There are some things that should be taken care of.  Radical Islam being one of those things as it is a threat to all Western countries.

On the topic of Israel.  The Jewish state does have every right to defend herself.  The fact of the matter is that during the so-called ceasefire that had been arranged between Hamas and Israel larger and more powerful weapons were smuggled into Hamas through the tunnels at the Egyptian border.  Once smuggled in they were used to launch even more missiles into Israel effectively ending the ceasefire and starting the current conflict.

Secondly, Islam as a whole hates the Jewish people.  Not just Palestine.  All of the Islamic countries wish the Jewish race to be exterminated and completely removed from this Earth.  Anti-semitism can be found throughout the Koran itself. (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2008/04/020584print.html)

Lastly, I complete this post with a reminder from the past.  I know it's not good taste to bring up the National Socialists of Germany but during Economic turmoil they turned their citizens against the Jews as the main problem and cause of the Economic Crisis.  This hatred towards a "scapegoat" race can be seen throughout history.  Sadly, this blatant anti-semitism is showing itself again even in our more modern times.  Currently during our Economic Crisis it seems that Europe, or rather the polled countries, have taken a liking to once again blaming the Jews as a cause to the global financial problem. (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/02/13/one-third-of-europeans-blame-the-economic-collapse-on/).

I do not believe the Jedi should weigh in on this let alone become carried away with an irrational hate towards a race, a people, a religion and a country.  We should, however, seek to understand both sides and mediate if/when it becomes possible.  Jedi do not choose sides, however, we do defend those who need defense.  Do not say that Hamas only exists because of the Israel/Jewish State when the religion itself is anti-semitic.

[we]

-2 other religions started on this land, and they happen to be Christianity and Islam, the two largest religions on earth.
-There was already a country on that land.
-This land has always been involved in conflicts, but for once it was actually doing fine.

I agree and disagree with what you say.  You have your point of view on the situation and others have theirs.

The two other religions you speak of came from Judaism.  Sharing the same history makes them owners of the land as much as a child owns the house of their parents while their parent is still alive.  Christianity and Islam may be two of the "three" largest, but they are still in their infancy compared to Judaism.

Secondly, there was a country on that land, but it was a country that was given that land through conquest in the first place.  Israel was a land promised to the Hebrews by God.  They had settled the land, but were moved off of it by the Canaanites and others.  After being released from the service of Israel, they went back and took what was theirs.  Then the Babylonians came, then the Assyrians, and so on.  As always, they returned to the land which they originally held.  So, who was their first?

Finally, the idea that the land was doing fine before the United Nations Resolution is a point of view and not a fact.  After World War II, the Nazi party was ousted and forced out of the political systems of many countries.  Palestine was one of them.  The reason that things had not entirely collapsed was because there was not enough time for it to collapse.  They lost the head of their political party and were being led by appointed proxies who did not know exactly what they were doing.

You claim that we are responsible for this, but I disagree.  I have had no hand in the creation or the conflict of Israel.  It is easy to assume the blame upon yourself for the actions of the previous generation, but it is also flawed.  The same conclusion could be used, has been used, to blame Christian for the persecution of other religions.  We are not responsible for the conflict, but we are aware of it.

If other countries were to take half of my country to give it to someone else for no particular reason (It's not as if the UN had given a bit of germany to the jews, or a bit of it's own countries), depriving me of my democratic right to decide of what happens on the land on which I was born, then I'd be launching missiles, shoes and dirty knickers at them everyday.

However, whose land was it in the first place?  Was not the land taken from the Jews before by the Romans?  Was it not taken before by the Assyrians?  And before that by the Babylonians?  It is a never-ending cycle.  To claim that it is legitimate to fight against a country by attacking its civilians and children is unconscionable.  Military action is one thing, but attack a civilian population through blind firing weapons is just wrong in the worst case of the word.

If the United Nations were to dismantle Israel to move it or to make it something other than what it is, do you really believe that it would work?  What would the United Nations do?  Would they threaten to attack the country of Israel if they do not move all of their people to another location?  Would they threaten to erase the nation of Israel from maps?  What is done is done.

As for dismantling Israel and making it a "pre-UN intervention state", why not go back a little further.  Make it a pre-Roman intervention state?  Wait, that would involve moving the rest of the Palestianian people out.  Remember, the Temple Mount is not a Christian church, nor was it originally the location of the Dome of the Rock... it was the Temple of Jerusalem.  The grand temple created by Solomon and destroyed by the Romans.

As for convincing them to live happily together, that was the situation, but outside influences got in to cause disharmony.  It is Hammas and Hezbollah which is causing the problems between the two states.  Both of which are terror organizations which have no heed for innocent lives.  If they did, they would not launch missiles blindly at civilian establishments.

----------

I am open to options which will end war, but as I said before, what is done is done.  I have been and will keep praying for those who are affected by the conflict.  I have friends who live in Israel and continually pray for their safety.  However, at the same time, I pray for a cessation to the hostilities.  I know that the Israelis are not entirely innocent for the conflict, but neither are the Palestinians.  Even though both groups have done things that are not right, neither is truly to blame.  Nor should the blame be placed upon the United Nations or other countries.  Utmost, the blame should not be placed upon us, as we have had no interaction with the conflict or creation of the nation of Israel.

The blame should go toward those who feel that their side is right where the other is wrong.  Where they feel that they have the right to do violence because they have been wronged.  Violence begets violence.  It is unfortunate, but I feel that the conflict will rage on until one side succeeds in its goals.  But what I must ask is which side do you wish to see succeed?

The side which wishes to wipe Israel from the planet or the side which wishes to live at peace with the rest of the region?

As a Jedi, I vote for peace, but even I know that peace comes with a price.

If we were in fascist countries, then it wouldn't be our fault. But when our democracy makes mistakes, we can't keep benefiting from it while denying it's mistakes. Our ancestors did some great things and some bad ones too. they made our lives 'heaven' but other people's lives 'hell'. If we are true to ourselves and do what we promote, then yes, the situation in Israel is our fault, and it is more than time to pay for it. Just like family debts.

About the religions in palestine/Israel, I don't think this is what should define the ownership of the land. Or whoever was there first. People move, that's how it is. Americans should be grateful the Apache aren't so-called terrorists. I mean they were there first, right? All non-Apache people are therefore illegally occupying the land. I could say the things about the large Mexican territories that were invaded by the US not so long ago. But the illegal immigrants are the mexicans, not the others. The jews go everywhere and have been doing so for hundreds of years.

By the way, Palestine was ruled by the British from the 1920's until 1948, so I doubt the nazi party was there, especially not during the war

If the United Nations were to dismantle Israel to move it or to make it something other than what it is, do you really believe that it would work?  What would the United Nations do?  Would they threaten to attack the country of Israel if they do not move all of their people to another location? 

I doubt kicking the Israeli people from over there would be a good idea either. Some of them were born there, and Israel is all they know. It seems fair to me to think that it's their land too.

Would they threaten to erase the nation of Israel from maps

I personally don't recognize the state of Israel. Adding and removing borders on maps is an easy thing to do, the UN failed to realize that countries and peoples won't disappear with the application of rubber. Paper is nothing and can be used to fake anything.

As for dismantling Israel and making it a "pre-UN intervention state", why not go back a little further

Because As I said, things were much better before the UN intervened. I'm not an expert in history of religions, but there are many sacred jewish, christian and muslim sites in Israel, today. pre-roman invasion... Weren't the jews being used as slaves by the egyptians? I roman times, the guy you worship got crucified. Not a very good thing. Then all the crusades happened. Not good either. But you know me, I personally think earth would be better off going back to the state it was in before Abrahamic religions started

It is Hammas and Hezbollah which is causing the problems between the two states.  Both of which are terror organizations which have no heed for innocent lives.  If they did, they would not launch missiles blindly at civilian establishments.

I don't support Israel, and do not support these organizations either. Organizations that can claim victory after the enormous losses they had, excluding the fact that their land lies in ruins and there were many more civilian casualties in Gaza than in Israel are just blind dangerous fools. If Saddam killing 150 civilians (possibly plotting his death) is a crime against humanity, then what Israel does to civilians (possibly launching missiles) is called genocide.

As for convincing them to live happily together, that was the situation, but outside influences got in to cause disharmony.  It is Hammas and Hezbollah which is causing the problems between the two states.  Both of which are terror organizations which have no heed for innocent lives.  If they did, they would not launch missiles blindly at civilian establishments.

The two organizations only exist because Israel exists. And longer the problem persists, the stronger they'll be. I'm a fairly peaceful man, but right now if I was a Palestinian I'd be boiling with hate, planning to vitrify Israel. Because longer this thing lasts, lesser it will be about the land. I was talking in another thread about behavioral and sociological artifacts in society. 60 years after the creation if Israel, it's not about getting their land and homes back. Most of these fighters probably never set foot in Israel. And you can be sure they will get stronger and stronger support from other muslims. Palestine and their allies vs Israel and their Allies. kinda sounds familliar all that. A rich, powerful, WMD equipped country Vs. masked guys with AK47s and suicide bombers.

Weren't the jews being used as slaves by the egyptians? I roman times, the guy you worship got crucified. Not a very good thing. Then all the crusades happened. Not good either. But you know me, I personally think earth would be better off going back to the state it was in before Abrahamic religions started

Actually, there is some misdirection as to the state of the Israelites during their time in Egypt.  They were not slaves, as slaves do not have their own city.  Also, the city contained a large armory and was a little far from the capital.  It was more likely that they were mercenaries who were kept by the Pharaoh.  Which makes sense given the Israelite military knowledge (seen in Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Genesis).  So, they were not really enslaved.  Also, the Hebrew version of the Bible states why the Israelites were followed by Pharaoh... they sacked an Egyptian city.

As for going back to Sumerian times... I would not suggest that.  Besides the fact that the people were little more than slaves to the High Priest/Priestess and Temple (in the name of the God or Goddess of the city), travelers were seen as outsiders and were typically killed unless they were merchants, and there were very bloody wars at least yearly where one city completely wiped out another.  The wars made ours look like spit-ball fights.

By the way, I am a student in a university religion program focusing on the Old Testament.  Specifically the Book of Genesis and Sumerian sources of the Abramic religions.

Hmm I don't know anything about this City you talk about all I heard was that jews were used by the egyptians as slaves because they were heretics or something

As for going back to Sumerian times... I would not suggest that

I would. The sumerians did not represent any threat to my ancestors... And cities/tribes and other things going at war against each other? Not such a big deal. Also a great deal of knowledge comes from Mesopotamia, surely they deserve some credit for that Back then there was no need to tightly control the environment to make sure it keeps going, no need to cut a thousand trees for information tracts about how we should stop eating cod, etc... But well, it's too late to do otherwise, so I'll stop the weird utopic ramblings here

The wars made ours look like spit-ball fights.

I doubt that. We have very efficient killing methods nowadays, a whole lot more people to kill, and we do it. On another hand we can't really know how things were back then, but I still highly doubt they had biological warfare, automatic assault guns and ICBMs.

The Egyptians spent 210 years in the City of Goshen.  The Israelites were not slaves, they fled to Egypt when their lands were invaded by a superior force.  They followed the route that Joseph went on and ended up selling their services to Egypt.  The Egyptians were expert archers and charioteers, but did not have a strong infantry.  When fighting the Ethiopians, Egypt used the services of the Israelites as the land was full of rocks which stopped chariots and acted as cover for arrows.  Moses typically led the forces as the Royal Commander under the rule of Seti I.

It was not until the death of Seti I that the Israelites were brought into slavery.  The reason is that their contract ended with Seti I and they had amassed enough of an army to reconquer their land.  Ramses did not want to let them go...  but that is beside the point.

And cities/tribes and other things going at war against each other? Not such a big deal.

...

I doubt that. We have very efficient killing methods nowadays, a whole lot more people to kill, and we do it. On another hand we can't really know how things were back then, but I still highly doubt they had biological warfare, automatic assault guns and ICBMs.

Except that the winning city typically killed EVERYONE from the losing city.  The Hebrews did it and so too did the Israelites.  It was the thing to do, wipe out every man, woman, and child.  We tend to avoid civilian casualties in war, the Sumerians preferred it.  Otherwise, it would have been a nice place if what I have learned is true.

We tend to avoid civilian casualties in war

'We' tend to claim so. At the end of the day, there still are a lot of civilian casualties. And the civilians are always the ones who loose everything. Wealth, home, family, etc... And don't get a thing in exchange for it. Also 'we' aren't the only ones involved in wars. Others do still attack civilians (but certainly won't openly admit it). 'We' know it because our governments don't censor this type of info (after all, more dirt on our enemies can only be 'good', I'm sure governments issue a set of 'recommendations' for the media), but as I said we aren't necessarily better, and we certainly have the ability to be much worse.

A. war is crazy and your thought processes all point to survive
B. a bunch of 'civilian' casulaties are because the civilians picked up guns off of their brothers and shoot at our brothers who fight for OUR freedom
and C. dont judge a war from an arm chair

A. Agreed
B. Armed people don't count as civilian casualties, as they(the civilians) are not non-combatants, and supposedly are protected by the fourth geneva convention. non-official or simply unknown armed forces are milicia, terrorist or simple gangsters and aren't civilians.  Doesn't look like anyone cares about geneva nowadays, but it's not because everyone seem to act like monsters you have to act like one too.
C. Some people have never experienced war. One thing is sure, you can't experience all of them. Especially the very long ones. And study the impacts at the same time. It's hard to know what's going on and know what goes through people's minds. A lot of fear, that's for sure. Fear leads to non-sense, hate, more non-sense, more hate... Things that start for a little nothing end up in tragedies. If Star Wars can teach us anything, it's that.